Fuck IT ALL™ feat. I AM Radio
A podcast to redefine modern womanhood, and what it means to have "it all."
Women are told that we get to have it all; but what happens when our “all" doesn’t align with what society says is enough? The Fuck IT ALL™ podcast is an exploration, conversation and love letter to the brave women who are intentionally redefining what it means to have it all.
Fuck IT ALL™ feat. I AM Radio
I AM Radio: "Culture Needs to Catch Up" with Gretchen Barton
This week, we had the pleasure of sitting down with Gretchen Barton for a 30-minute conversation that honestly, shifts paradigms. ➡️
We were first introduced to Gretchen through a mutual friend, and in our initial meeting (after merely minutes!) we were so enthralled with both her and her work that we couldn’t wait to share it with literally anyone who would listen. Trust us, you’ll feel the same and all you have to do is press play!
Gretchen is a researcher and strategist in the political and policy space, and her work centers around the psychology underpinning behavior change and rewriting narratives. Say less. You know we are here 👏 for 👏 it 👏!
She is also the Founder and Principal of Worthy Strategy Group, LLC, a research and behavioral science consulting group specializing in uncovering and understanding how and why people think, feel, and behave as they do on a deep level, - wait - AND she’s the Lead Convener of the American Leadership Project. Not sure what all of that means, you say!? Well, believe us, ya want to know! And Gretchen will give you the TL;DR herself.
Over coffee, we speak about everything from presidential elections to Jonathan Taylor Thomas. We learn how stories she heard from Holocaust survivors in her community as a child influenced her pursuit of psychology and research. How founding a business was a bold act to not only follow her passion but also create the change she hopes to see in the world. And how telling better stories can shift culture. “Culture needs to catch up,” she says. It’s not enough to have women represented in media, we need to change how they are represented.
Okay, ready? LFG. Press play.
More on the American Leadership Project: 🇺🇸
The American Leadership Project is a narrative initiative to build the runway for a woman to run for and win the presidency. Bringing together minds across the political, academic, and cultural spaces, the project looks to support women running for office and make it possible for women to break the "highest, hardest glass ceiling" by helping culture makers tell better stories about women - stories that are missing today from our cultural lexicon - and help our society be able to imagine women favorably in leadership. 🙌
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We are a women-centered media company rewriting the narrative on modern womanhood through story and collaboration.
We're glad you're here.
Welcome to I Am Radio. I'm your cohost, Kasey Lett Gordon. And I'm your other, one might say better, half, Katie Louise Mullins. We are the creators of the beloved FIA podcast and the women behind It All Media. Join us every Thursday for your weekly dose of I Am Radio. We'll be joined by fellow creatives, experts, organizers, powerful women in media, and our favorite of all, real women. As we chronicle, Our journey as two first time entrepreneurs turn filmmakers. With that, cue the dancing hot dogs and concession ads. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. I would love to introduce today's guest, Gretchen Barton. And I were first introduced to Gretchen through a mutual friend, and after spending just a few minutes conversing, we felt instantly connected. She is a researcher and a strategist for the political and policy space, and her work centers around the psychology underpinning behavior change and rewriting narratives. So obviously she speaks directly to our souls. Gretchen is the founder and principal at Worthy Strategy Group and the lead convener at the American Leadership Project, both of which we will learn more about today from her. Gretchen, thank you so much for being on the show with us. Gosh, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Oh gosh. Thanks. So I am flying solo today as Casey's still out on maternity leave. And because of that, I'm going to change up the format just a little bit. Um, I've always been somebody that asks a lot of questions in order to really get to know someone much to my mother's demise. Um, so I'm just going to guide us through the conversation with some questions, allow Gretchen to share her story, and then we'll have time for a little rapid fire at the end. So let's dive in Gretchen. You're in the hot seat. Let's talk about you. Starting with your story. Uh, how did you get here? And I want to talk about research because obviously it's one of your many superpowers. It has been prevalent through all of your work throughout your career. And, um, honestly, in the political and policy space, research is not always the first thing I think of. So. Totally. Oh, gosh. Thanks for the opportunity to talk about it. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I grew up in upstate New York where it's very, very cold. Um, and, uh, you know, one of the things that really, um, guided me and shaped me as a person was that in the community where I grew up, a lot of Holocaust survivors had settled, actually. I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, but they had, and yeah, and they came to our school, you know, just as part of like a meet people in your community program. At least that's what I recall. And I remember it. Hearing their stories. And I mean, I grew up, um, you know, evangelical Republican kid. Um, uh, so it wasn't like a personal, you know, I wasn't Jewish, but I, I heard their stories and it, and it deeply impacted me because I, what I took from it was. Um, you know, how, how much I, I didn't want anything like that to ever happen again in the world. And I started researching, uh, well researching, reading a bunch as a young kid, um, about, about World War II, about the Weimar period leading up to World War II, about all the things that humans can do to each other and, and how mass movements kind of form together. And it became sort of a thing, a little bit of an obsession of mine. To kind of understand how bad things happen to good people and how to stop them. And I studied it forever. Um, when I went to college, I studied, um, hazing, people were getting thrown downstairs and getting really hurt at my university. And, um, I went and I, I interviewed people and I realized, um, how powerful research could be in the moment and kind of understanding, you know, not just what people were feeling, but. But why they were feeling and why they were behaving as they were and, and, and finding ways to, to develop interventions to kind of stop the bad thing from happening, whether it was hazing or, or something bigger than that. So that was kind of my start of it. But, you know, it really was, you know, over the years, um, realizing that a lot of times bad things happen because we're just unaware of the extent of the problem. And we're on extent, we're unaware of like how the problem even came together and how to unpack it. And, um, Over time, I realized how powerful research could be, you know, working with hospitals in New York, working with non profits, you know, changing, um, care standards, um, and then, you know, when the, um, when Donald Trump ascended into office, I, I really didn't want him there, um, I'll just say that, and I wanted to do everything in my power Get him out. And, and so I dedicated myself to, um, research that would help understand what drove people, um, to come out and vote to, to stay home, all of that. And, and that was really kind of how I got to a place where where the strategy group was formed. I really wanted to find a way to help in, in, you know, times of crisis and, and, you know, big movements being formed. So, yeah, yeah, that's incredible. I told you before we jumped on this call that we did a panel last week around entrepreneurship is a form of radical activism and really talking about how we can utilize our individual superpowers and authentic voices in order to create the change we want to see in the world and that feels so much around where the strategy group and just your own personal journey and starting that, um, Can you talk a little bit more about like what Worthy Strategy Group is and how you brought it to life? Thank you so much. Yeah, Worthy Strategy Group. Um, I started it, um, the year that Joe Biden was elected. Um, I created it because I wanted, I was looking, you know, I was honestly, I was looking for this job right out of college, but I couldn't find it. Um, nine to five, and it took me, A number of years, um, before I was able to, to be able to start my own business, but all of the places that I worked at, I was, I was learning. I was growing. Um, and where the strategy group was really the expression of what I ultimately wanted to do, which is work on the world's toughest problems using deep research that gets deeper. Deeper than anybody else, but really deep, uh, and understands not only what people are thinking, but why they are thinking and, and, and play an active role in solving some of the biggest problems that we see in our lifetime. We use, um, you know, psychology and neuroscience, um, to understand how people are thinking and feeling. We've at this point, we've interviewed over, you know, 3000 people. Um, and, and we've gotten to a place now where we're, Really able to have a conversation with, you know, people who make policies and politicians and, and, um, and, and it's an exciting thing to be able to play that role. But, you know, it really just started with a dream of wanting to make an impact and finding that in the nine to fives where I was at. I really. You know, I was, I was falling at someone else's dream and, um, which is great, which was great. You know, I love everyone's dream, but, you know, for me, I wanted to spend the time that I had on this planet really, you know, helping with the direction of where the country is going and, um, And, and I'm, I feel so very lucky to be able to do this. I've got a great team. Um, we've been able to work on some really cool projects, um, from nuclear disarmament to a lot of work in Ukraine recently, and, um, immigration, lots of elections and, um, you know, and, and of course this, this women's work that we're also doing, so yeah, just casual, like. Ukraine, immigration, you know, small. I mean, also too, like, I just want to say, I feel like, um, big times make big people. I just feel like there's so much going on in the world. It's, I feel like it, I know it sounds fancy, but like really, we're just hacking away at the everyday problems that everyone else is hacking away at. We're just, we just are lucky enough to have the opportunity to do it. So, yeah. I love that. And I guess speaking of that, it kind of rolls into your most recent project, the American leadership project. And this is something when Casey and I first spoke to you, that just like lit us up inside because I mean, obviously there's a lot centered around women here. Um, but particularly the role that media plays in telling better stories, and particularly around women in leadership, those stories. So would you mind just explaining a little bit about this project and why you guys are. attempting to do. I'll be delighted. Thank you. Yeah. We, um, a couple of years ago we did a project, uh, we actually called the pap study on my team and I, um, was short for pick a president, but I haven't. And, uh, we, we kind of thought it was a funny idea to, to call it the pap study for, for obvious reasons. Um, but, um, but what we did was we asked, um, individuals to bring in videos that represented. The current state of America, um, psychology tells us that, you know, multimedia images, things like that can really paint a more comprehensive picture of what people are really thinking, what the vibe is, then just saying like, I feel like America is good. I feel like I'm right. So We saw a lot of videos and then we asked people, given the state of America, who's your ideal leader, uh, bring me some images, not, not of a particular, you know, um, leader in office today, but, you know, an archetype of somebody, um, you know, a character and, you know, we got some really great data from that. Oh, we got a really, um, nuanced picture of what leadership in America needs to look like moving forward. Um, But one of the things that we noticed in that first pass was, gosh, there's a lot of guys here. And, um, and, and in some of the categories, which people really talked about as being essential, women were entirely missing from the literal picture. Um, we then went back over 12 different studies that we had done where we talked to people at every level of, um, of, of, uh, At every level. So city level, state level, federal level. Um, and we asked people about their ideal leaders. We went back and did an analysis to kind of see, like, is this just a one time thing that we just saw a bunch of men here and not a lot of women. Uh, and it turned out that, you know, looking over about 1000 different folks representative of the US electorate, uh, only 22 percent of the time women were being brought in as ideal leaders. Which I thought was bonkers. Yeah. Yeah. And, and women were so under considered that even when you looked at men's images, they brought in what we call non gender specific images, which are holding hands, dogs, things that you couldn't be like, that's a girl, that's a boy. They brought in those 17 percent of the time, women only 15 percent of the time, the rest of them were guys. We have something called consideration set in market research and, um, consideration set is basically like you've seen it before you recognize it. It's based off of this heuristic that, like, the more familiar, familiar you are with an idea, the better of an idea your brain thinks it is. So if someone says to you, Hey, um, uh, Wear this blue lipstick. And you're like, I don't like blue lipstick. And then every day they went to you and they were like, blue lipstick is great. Blue lipstick, blue lipstick. You'd become more familiar with it. And you start to go, Oh, blue lipstick. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Maybe. And it's why like media wins, wins elections for people because you just need somebody all the time. Your brain starts to think like, so and so is a good idea. Um, but anyway, so women, women weren't part of that picture. They weren't part of the consideration set. And I thought, well, that's, that's a problem. And then I looked to, um, then we looked at the different qualities, you know, where women considered to be more of one thing than another, you know, what, how did the race impact it? And we saw again, that women were associated with certain stories. Um, right. That they were like, uh, fight the power kinds of leaders when we thought of a woman, but they weren't necessarily like innovators, which is a really critical quality for leadership in America. So we realized pretty quickly, okay, we've got something that we can use to help women. And um, we brainstormed as a team, like what we could do. And one of the thoughts was, you know, the stories in people's heads are coming from somewhere. They're coming from the media that they watch every day, two to three hours a day. People watch TV and tell, you know, film, um, on average, they spend about four minutes a week though, on like political news. So really as much as, um, it is powerful and amazing to have women run for office and get into those positions. The bigger impact is really coming from what they're seeing on Netflix and on Disney and Amazon, everything. So. Um, we happen to have some buddies in Hollywood and we called up and said, you know, could we, you know, come over and, you know, talk to some folks. And so that's, that's what we started to do. We started to have conversations with show runners and, and, um, you know, producers and studio heads about, these are the kinds of stories we're telling in Hollywood. And we're, we're working from a specific palette, but look, we can expand the palette. And if we ever want to have a woman be president, and if we want to change the game for women, We need to expand out those stories to really, um, show women as they are fully capable of being shown right as innovators, as leaders, fundamentally American, doing all of the things that we know that women do naturally, but really they're just sort of untold stories. So, um, yeah, but we, we, we, we have, we've been, we've been pretty successful. We're, you know, still working on things. Of course, obviously it's, it's an ongoing process. It's not going to be fixed overnight, but we've partnered with the Gina Davis Institute on gender and media. They're amazing. Um, we've worked with a bunch of, um, incredible, uh, folks and, um, you know, we're continuing to press forward. I think that's one of the most interesting things. Um, when we first started considering the docuseries and really the narrative series before that, when we were first approached to turn the podcast into, a television show, it was really that idea that. Once something is in the mainstream media, it takes about five years for culture to actually adopt it. Um, and so I thought that was so interesting. It's like, even down to a couple sleeping in the same bed or in a racial kisses or, you know, things like that, that we would see on TV. And then ultimately they become commonplace, you know, in the world we live. And I think how effective media is, it honestly kind of blew my mind. And I was like, all right, well, we have to take it to a TV medium in order to reach audiences, but also create the change we want to see. Absolutely. Absolutely. Really people do take, take cues. Um, you know, there's, there's a story. Um, I'm doing some work on political violence right now. Just, you know, studying, studying. No, no, no, no, no. But I'm working with this incredible woman, Rose Hackman, who does work on, um, uh, gender and she and I have been studying how, um, you know, political violence movements in the United States, white supremacy movements in particular, they're underpinned by two key pillars. They're underpinned by misogyny. Uh, in anti Semitism, both of which, uh, unfortunately are, are growing in the United States. And one of the things that, um, we're just really, um, struck by is, um, how much we need to push back. And also how, Strong culture is as a force. We were looking at something as we were looking at sort of global examples of like misogyny and like, you know, how, um, cultures change. We were looking at Iran and, um, and I am not an expert in Iran, so please forgive this drunk history version of it. But before the Shah fell, women were in leadership positions and you can Google it and see women in power and then virtually overnight. Women were not in power, they were not leaders anymore, they were completely, um, you know, disarmed and, and, and their rights were taken away. And the thing that Rose and I have been saying again and again to each other is, you know, culture wins every time, every time. We can get, you know, board seats, we can get all of that. But until we change culture, that's like the big wave underneath the surface that, um, really directs how history plays out. And so, Getting to that below the surface thing and addressing that, you know, feels really important for all of us to do. It's not short term work, it's long term work, but it's, it's, it's critical if we're to have, you know, a stable country where we're not, you know, um, yeah, one where we have a democracy and one where people have and enjoy equal rights. So, well, I guess it's kind of over into my next question. Um, so when we first shared the I am docu series with you, not only did you have the same vocabulary, but you were teaching us new terms, and I know as a fellow storyteller, uh, dedicated to both culture and systems change, and the creation of better stories, what are your thoughts on, why the time is now? I know this is an election year. Why is it so imperative that we start telling better stories now? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, so many reasons. Um, well, why not? No. Uh, you know, I'll tell you what, when I was in Hollywood last summer, um, I did get asked that question too. You know, like we're losing, we're about to lose democracy and we really just have to like make sure one guy wins out over another. That's what we need to focus on. And certainly there's plenty of work to do. And certainly there's important work to do with that. Absolutely. That said, um, there are multiple components to the situation that we find ourselves in today. Um, as, as I mentioned, um, you know, undergirding a lot of this, um, white supremacy movement is this misogyny. That is growing. And we see across the world, even how, um, how bad actors can get in there and, um, um, And use our own bias against us to destabilize democracies. I was speaking with some women in Poland who were doing narrative work, um, lifting up the women there and trying to protect them from the huge number of misogynistic attacks that they were getting. But it was all part of these anti democratic forces. The thing that I don't think people realize is that our misogyny is, um, a back gate to, um, destabilize, destabilizing our entire nation, um, our biases against others, like keep us from each other and keep us from working together. And it keeps us also, um, for maximizing our potential. I mean, I don't mean to sound like a big like, but I mean, it's, it's true. It holds us back in so many big ways. So, you know, I, I, I look at countries that have been, you know, taken apart by misogyny and don't allow, All of their populations to stand on equal footing with each other and give each other equal opportunities. And I see countries that just are on their way to dying. And I want, um, I want us to have, um, you know, a great, great country moving forward. I want my daughter to have opportunities. I want all of our, you know, everybody to have opportunities. Um, but you know, working on this, we've, we've identified it as a problem. It is one we need to, we need to expand the stories we tell about women. We need to take an active effort in supporting women in this way. And I think, you know, look, there's been, there's, there's been work that's come before. We need to re energize the effort. Um, I think that a lot of people will see women and kind of go, we're fine. We're fine. Um, but the thing is, we're not, there's a lot of stuff that's under the surface that's creeping up. And history has told us again and again and again that when you see those kinds of forces, you know, there's trouble ahead. So we're trying to get ahead of it. And we're trying to, you know, shore up rights for women, which are rapidly falling away. Um, we're trying and we're trying to, you know, get ourselves in a position where, you know, We have opportunities. Um, just like men, we in our country has an opportunity to thrive and grow. So that was a whole laundry list of things, but no, all worthy of mention. Yeah, yeah, I think when we had our 1st conversation and you mentioned, really just based on research that, the U S is not ready to, elect a woman into the presidency. Just based on what we're seeing. I was like, that's so disheartening. Just, yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not. And I mean, I think, I think, I think that's also a thing. Right. And I, and I think we really need to consider a comprehensive approach. I mean, the thing that sometimes worries me a little bit is we focus a lot. And I think, again, it's very, very important. We focus a lot on getting women into a pipeline. And I think that that's. Important and impressive and amazing and but I have seen as a researcher, there is only so far we can go until culture catches up and and that work needs to be done. That work needs to be done. And we've done a lot of work in saying we should have women represented in media. Great. But let's think about now how we represent women in media and how we can tell the stories of the women that we see in our daily lives and reflect the reality of of women, innovating of women, changing the world, making the country better, making the world better because those are true stories and they deserve to be heard. Yeah, I love how you say that just affecting culture. I mean, Casey and I, our whole, our whole framework is really stories informed beliefs, which inform actions, which build the systems that run our lives at home at work and in our communities. And it really is, it always comes back to changing the stories that we're told and what we're told. Stories we're telling ourselves. Often we have that bias within us that we don't even realize. So true. So true. So true. I know. Um, all right, let's do a little rapid fire. Yeah. This is always my favorite part of the FIA podcast, so we're going to bring it back today. All right, finish the sentence. I feel most in my power when. Oh, um, um, either drinking coffee. Um, Or skiing. That sounds like, Oh God, my husband taught me to ski a couple of years ago. And I, Oh, this is rapid. Okay. Anyway, I, no, no, tell me the story, please. I was, I was scared to do it. And then I read this article about like changing the psychology and the frame around skiing to be like all about like reminding you of your strength and, um, uh, calling, um, the mountain, like, Oh God, big mama's belly and thinking that the trees are hugging you. This sounds really fruity, but um, yeah, I, I feel very, uh, in my power when I'm skiing and drinking coffee. Yes. That's fantastic. I also love that psychology fit in there. You're like, this is the thing that speaks to me. So I can change my psychology. Yes, it worked too. It worked. I love that. Tapping into your superpowers. Um, on the opposite side of that, my power is shaken. When my power is shaken, I hide under my desk. Um, good. I mean, I, I have learned over time to observe my, Emotions, uh, more carefully and when I feel weak or my energy is off, I have learned to stop and slow down and give myself permission to hide a little bit and, and reset and recalibrate and honor that, um, I might be tired. Something might be wrong, something might be off and, um, um, and yeah, give myself an opportunity to like get my head in the right space before continuing on. So, yeah. I, yeah, same. I'd go inside. Right! So important! So important. We gotta get quiet. Okay, last one. What is a story that you've been told, either by others or a story you tell yourself, that you've had to either rewrite to get to where you are today, or you are still rewriting? Oh god! Oh! Okay. Okay. Limiting beliefs. For sure. For sure. Okay. I mean, growing up, I really felt, I, I, I think I saw myself as an accessory to a future guy who was Jonathan Taylor Thomas or some, some guy, someday, um, I, I really saw myself as an accessory to a future guy. And I wasn't very conscious of it, but I, I, I did and I saw myself as additive, but not central to things. Someone who could help, but not change things and. Over time, I've come to realize that don't need to wait for somebody to realize my dreams or I don't need to, you know, I mean, I'm married, he's great, uh, Joe's wonderful, but, um, I don't need to get my fix of change and dreams and another person I can Be a transformative agent, um, myself. And I have, um, I have been, I have learned a lot spending time with other women who have been pushed into or found themselves in big circumstances. Um, and I have been so amazed at And women, both sometimes are the stories that we tell ourselves about, like, how we shouldn't be in the room or we shouldn't be at the table, but actually are like, bad ass, which is, um, you know, I, I remember being in a room with a woman who had just testified in front of Congress and she was. Talking about how she didn't know why she was here anyway at this like important dinner. Um, she didn't know why she was here and she really didn't know what she was doing. Um, and then when there was a moment, um, to talk about, Um, some very specific foreign policy stuff. She came in there with information like I'd never seen before. And of course she did have a reason to be there and she rose to the moment. And I think that, um, we all have that ability. We all have that in us. Um, but sometimes we think that we're smaller than we are and, um, really just need the air and the space to grow and the belief in ourselves to, to do it. So, yeah. Damn, that was a gorgeous answer. I, uh, yeah, I think my favorite thing about the podcast is after talking to just so many women, uh, they always wonder why they're on the podcast. And then at the end of it, they're like, I didn't realize I had a story to tell, but it was such a, you know, just like a gorgeous aha. But I, I think so often I'm such a, I often make myself small and have to remember that, you know, I, I'm in the room for a reason and, uh, and often we're already invited into the room and women are so innately, uh, you know, points to, to tell them, like, to read off their resume and tell everyone to reassure them why they're in the room. And, um, already here, girlfriend, you're already here. That's right. Well, when you've been training your entire life to, to be small, because our culture sort of tells us to do that and to fit into this box, you know, we're contortionist, good. We are so, um, we, you know, women take cultural cues like everybody does, like what's appropriate, what's right. Um, and, and, and so it is hard to get out of the box and say, like, actually I can stretch, I can do things. Um, it's hard, um, but it's. It's so important, and women have so much to offer. True. Thank you so much, Gretchen. Really appreciate you being here today and having this conversation. How can we follow and support you? Oh my goodness. Well, uh, please check out theamericanleadershipproject. org. That's where we, uh, house our, our, our project. Also, worthystrategygroup. com is where we, you know, have, um, research, um, posted what we're up to, what we're thinking about and all of the things that we're working on. Um, we'd love to have you come visit and sign up for our newsletter. Um, and yeah, just, um, please keep an eye out for us. We're really, uh, just so grateful to be doing the work that we're doing and in this moment. So, yeah. Thank you so much. We'll include all of those in the show notes and thank you so much for the work that you are doing. You are such an inspiration to Casey and I and we're so glad to be partners on this journey. Amazing. Thank you so much. Have a good one.
